The End of Smart Basic?

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rbytes
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The End of Smart Basic?

Post by rbytes »

I noticed an exchange yesterday on the Russian-language section of the Forum. A user named Denismix offered some comments and suggestions about the current impasse between Apple and Smart Basic's developer, Mr. Kibernetik. Newcomers to the Forum may be unaware that Apple will not allow any updates to Smart Basic until the Dropbox feature is removed. Mr. Kibernetik is unwilling to do that.

If no solution is found, Smart Basic will become extinct. It could happen at the next iOS update. And the prospects now seem dimmer than ever. Here is Mr. K's response to the user's comments, and the subsequent conversation with me:

Mr. K to Denismix:
Many thanks for the advice on this issue.
The fact is that I am not developing software for Apple now and no longer use their ecosystem.
Smart BASIC now exists by inertia, on the base originally laid in it, until the next iOS update kills it completely.
At the moment there are no plans for my return to programming for iOS, I am currently busy with other projects.
Me to Mr. K:
We understand that you don't see providing a future for Smart Basic. That is understandable after Apple's behavior toward you. But you have created many fans of Smart Basic. It is a marvelous program. Will you consider options that will allow it to continue? Open source? Selling or leasing to another developer or group of developers?

it will have zero value to you or us if the next iOS update kills it, but would have much value for all of us if we can find a way to keep it alive.

I don't fear the loss of Dropbox, because I have my own website that I can use as a transfer station. Perhaps many others do too.
Mr. K:
Time will tell. Now I can not answer this question. Thank you for your opinion.
I think it important that English-speaking users are aware of this situation. Smart Basic is on life support and the plug could be pulled at any time. Recently a new user spoke of their plans to use it for a company project. I hope they read this post, because it could be very embarrassing for them to have Smart Basic fail in the middle of their project. It could be career-threatening.

Time to start looking for other options..,.
Last edited by rbytes on Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by PaulKnight »

This is sad news indeed.

I used to muck about programming early computers when i was much younger (ZX Spectrum, Atari ST etc...), always in BASIC languages such as GFA Basic, STOS (a games programming BASIC) and then OPL on Psion organisers etc...

I always loved tinkering about in these programming languages, but never progressed beyond these. Life, career (not in computing), and children all seemed to get in the way of me learning anything more sophisticated. When the iPhone came along, and the App boom took place, I always wanted to get back into it and learn to code "real" apps, using Objective C. However, the barrier to entry (for me at least!) seemed very high - the learning curve was steep and I never had time to persevere to the point where I "got it".

The coding bug never seems to leave once you've dabbled though, and without time to learn advanced languages, I alway fell back on some type of BASIC language, which I could dip in and out of much more easily, trying out a few things in the odd 20 mins I had free now and again. I stumbled across MiSoft Basic! which was useful for getting stuff up and running, but alas, that ceased to be several years ago, left behind by iOS updates. I also toyed with TechBASIC which was also quite useful, but the IDE/editor was not much fun to use and I gave up with that.

I then discovered SMART Basic which seemed to be a much more stable development environment, that was easier to learn than TechBASIC and more reliable and less buggy than MiSoft Basic! I run some of the sample code and played about myself, but moved into a new role and time was even more restricted so I never got far.

However, recently, my company, which is pushing innovation within the business, put a call out for ideas for apps to improve work life. I have been leading the "competition" and have had over 100 ideas submitted which is great! The intention is for the 10 best ideas to be worked up a little further (wireframing and storyboards etc..) and then the rest of the company will vote on the best which will be worked up into a fully deployable app for iOS and Android. Anyway, this all re-kindled my interest in coding, so I dusted off Smart Basic and here we are.

As part of the app challenge, I submitted my own idea, and I thought it would be interesting to see if I could code it myself in Smart Basic, for personal challenge rather than necessity. It would be cool to turn up to work with a prototype running on my iPhone!

This is where i see the real selling point of the Smart Basic environment. For me at least, it allows me to knock up a "proof of concept" idea with minimal expense (just my own time), get some feedback from colleagues and if its something they like, look to get it developed by a proper coder who knows what they are actually doing - my spaghetti code won't impress anyone, but its thankfully hidden behind the pretty front end of the app, and for proving a concept, thats fine in my eyes.

Obviously, for you more experienced coders, actually using SB to produce viable, deployable apps on the App Store is a realistic option, and thats even better. Why learn ObjC when you can get the job done much more easily with SB?

It would be a real shame if SB development stops. I for one, would be willing to pay double the current asking price (maybe even more) to have the tool available to me in future. I don't know much about the politics of developing for the App Store, but I know Apple can be pretty strict with what is and isn't acceptable. It seems crazy to me that a great app such as SB, which could encourage more coders (especially at my basic level) to begin developing things for the iPhone, should be allowed to vanish from the platform. Utter madness.

I really do hope something can be resolved in this regard.
Best wishes and good luck finding a solution.

Thanks for the heads up Rbytes.

Best,
Paul.

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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by Mr. Kibernetik »

I think that panic is exagerrated. Nobody is going to "pull out the plug".
But the problem to lose Dropbox connection is absolutely real. We are discussing this problem here already for several years, and still somehow live with it...

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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by rbytes »

I don't know that anyone is panicking. The members I know are simply resigned to SB fading away, as I am. No one has said that you would pull the plug. But in your words:
Smart BASIC now exists by inertia, on the base originally laid in it, until the next iOS update kills it completely.
Maybe Google Translate did not do a good job of conveying your meaning, but how else would you like us to interpret those words? They seem to suggest that Apple would be the one pulling the plug by making SB obsolete.
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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by Mr. Kibernetik »

If some iOS update will make smart BASIC non-working and if I will update it then there will be no Dropbox in next version. That is the main reason why smart BASIC is still not updating.
Whether will I update it or not in the case of emergency is another question, it depends on many things. One of them, and maybe the most important one, is smart BASIC popularity. In other words, do people use it or not. And for me its indicator is this Forum activity.
I don't see how panic can improve the situation.

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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by Henko »

@ mr. K.:
A realistic view on this subject.
I can hardly express how much i like and use SB for my programming hobby. I used Borland C++ builder on PC for that purpose, but entirely switched to SB. I have a dedicated iPad for SB which is not updated wich new iOS versions.
I don't care a bit about possibly missing the dropbox feature.
I will start posting my hobby "products" again, hopefully to add to the use of the forum and SB. We need more active forum users.

@Paul:
The few current "regulars" here (say 200+ posts) are, as far as i know, not developing apps for the app store with the SDK. But they are able to create serious apps in SB, and more than happy to help anyone using SB. Hence, do not hesitate to ask here to speed up your development in SB.

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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by Mr. Kibernetik »

Henko wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:56 am
I will start posting my hobby "products" again
Happy to hear that! :D

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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by matt7 »

I'm sad to hear that Apple is not allowing updates to Smart Basic unless the Dropbox feature is removed (it is definitely very convenient for backups and sharing scripts here on the forum), but I would prefer to have Smart Basic without Dropbox if it meant continued support and bug fixes. I would make it a priority to find some other way to back up files and directories. Just wanted to share my perspective, but I also understand if working with Apple is unappealing now after this issue.

I have searched many times for a similar app that allows on the fly scripting AND program compilation and execution on the device itself, while also giving access to the device's IO and other system info (touch screen data is the main one). The closest I found was an app called Applicator. I played around with it for a little bit, it is actually pretty cool (it is more object-oriented than SB) but it has a ton of bugs and pretty serious stability issues. It also is very limited in terms of graphics and does not seem as fast as SB. It seems I'm not alone in being unable to find anything that is as powerful as SB!

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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by rbytes »

Apple is very selective about applying the no-import-code rule. They allow other programming apps such as Codea and Pythonista full access to the cloud to import their code. It seems Apple has singled out Smart Basic for punishment - perhaps because the reviewers discovered that the SB .txt extender limitation was easy to defeat. They seem to have decided that SB was cheating, so there will be no forgiveness and no appeal.

Still, they should not have objections to exporting via Dropbox, so rather than remove it entirely, maybe Mr. K could offer it as an export-only feature. Another option I hesitate to suggest (due to the programming involved) would be to parse any file selected to be imported via Dropbox, searching for SB command words. If any were found, the import would be prohibited.

At compiled speed, such a search could be done in a split second for virtually any SB program. Perhaps non-text files could be exempted, since SB programs are written as ASCII.

I agree with Matt7 - I have found no other programming app to equal SB in ease of coding, speed and power.
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Re: The End of Smart Basic?

Post by GeorgeMcGinn »

I understand all this, but SB is sandboxed, and regardless of file extensions for code or data, SB cannot access, say, MS Word files located in that app's sandbox, and even SB's access to Dropbox is also sandboxed, and can only access files or code in it. For example, if I want to access data from the Scrivener App on Dropbox, there is no way SB can go into that app's (or any other App's) Dropbox directories and read their files.

The only way for me as a developer to access data produced by another App is for me to physically put it there.

That is the same as all the other apps, except for File Manager, WinZip, FTP apps, etc. that are allowed to cross all sandboxes to move data.

But like those apps, we have to consciously move them. Only TechBASIC has it worse than SB. To get data into their sandbox, you need to first load it into iTunes, then copy it by hooking up your device to the PC. This means that somehow you either need to create the data on the PC or use a convoluted system to move data from one App on your mobile device to the TB sandox so you can copy it.

Because TechBASIC is a shell of what it used to be when it was the programming language on the Apple IIg (yes, TechBASIC is based on the version from Apple IIg, which was a great language), Mike had to gut it so he could add a full suite of code to access just about any kind of sensor and even robotics. So if you want to write a business or gaming app, TechBASIC isn't the language of choice - SmartBASIC is (my blog georgemcginn.comshould be up and running within this week), and I have a post that compares the two languages showing their strength and weaknesses. I even have a game that I wrote in both languages and a weather app which if I kept it's purpose could only be written in SamartBASIC.

IF you do like Henk and I and others, where I have one iPad that will never be updated to iOS 11+, all the features, including the camera will work, and after running it through XCode, because of the files and selecting the correct XCode version (8.2) most of the features will still work.

Like Henko, this year, since I do not have to move and I have spent most of last year developing a product that only Ricardo knows about and has been sworn to secrecy for now, I have a lot of vintage BASIC code I easily converted for SB which I will be posting here this year.

Let's keep interest in SB. I do most of my Cosmology work for scientists and university professors in SB because if they do not need sensors, SBhas more features than its competitor, TechBASIC does. And I really would hate to have to convert a lot of complex programs to TB, if it can be done at all.



rbytes wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:29 pm
Apple is very selective about applying the no-import-code rule. They allow other programming apps such as Codea and Pythonista full access to the cloud to import their code. It seems Apple has singled out Smart Basic for punishment - perhaps because the reviewers discovered that the SB .txt extender limitation was easy to defeat. They seem to have decided that SB was cheating, so there will be no forgiveness and no appeal.

Still, they should not have objections to exporting via Dropbox, so rather than remove it entirely, maybe Mr. K could offer it as an export-only feature. Another option I hesitate to suggest (due to the programming involved) would be to parse any file selected to be imported via Dropbox, searching for SB command words. If any were found, the import would be prohibited.

At compiled speed, such a search could be done in a split second for virtually any SB program. Perhaps non-text files could be exempted, since SB programs are written as ASCII.

I agree with Matt7 - I have found no other programming app to equal SB in ease of coding, speed and power.
George McGinn
Computer Scientist/Cosmologist/Writer/Photographer
Member: IEEE, IEEE Computer Society
IEEE Sensors Council & IoT Technical Community
American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS)

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